General Discussion

Devon for Europe - national march in London -Sat. 25th March

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Lynne
Lynne
18 Mar 2017 17:55

If you were amongst the 48.1% who voted to remain in the EU and would like to stop being written out of history by the Brexiteers, then take a look at the info on this link as this might be one way of doing it.

https://devonforeurope.com/unite-for-europe/

2 Agrees
roberta
roberta
18 Mar 2017 19:02

Why are we leaving Europe? Ithought we were leaving the European Union, surely that is completely different, orthats what I voted for.

2 Agrees
Lynne
Lynne
18 Mar 2017 20:05

I think, at the moment, and in this context, when the word 'Europe' is used everyone knows what is meant.  

I can give you examples of prominent Brexiteers who use the term 'Europe' as shorthand for the 'European Union'.  

2 Agrees
burneside
burneside
18 Mar 2017 20:19

Considering the Brexit bill passed through Parliament unamended and Theresa May will trigger Article 50 any day now, I would say the march is a waste of time.  You'd be better off spending the coach fare on something worthwhile.

4 Agrees
Lynne
Lynne
18 Mar 2017 20:28

A trip to Scotland perhaps?

2 Agrees
Carer
Carer
19 Mar 2017 07:47

@Lynne

 

Talking of Scotland, after England beat them in the 6 nations the other week, I'm surprised that they didn't ask for a rematch until they get the result that they want. cheeky

4 Agrees
Lynne
Lynne
19 Mar 2017 08:18

@Carer

I see Ireland beat England yesterday.

Am I right in thinking that the Irish rugby team is drawn from both sides of the Irish border?

I wonder therefore, if where rugby has led, another union of a more political nature may yet follow? 

Gary Taylor
Gary Taylor
19 Mar 2017 08:55

It's far more than a symbolic jesture, Burneside - it's an opportunity for 'the 48%' (and the disaffected amongst 'the 52%') to demonstrate against the most negative aspects of leaving the EU, the broken pledges of the Leave campaign and the inherent risk to the Union of our four nations.

 

We may be leaving the EU, but I know I would not rest if I did not make every effort to press to acheive the best for Great Britain.

 

Count me in, Lynne.

2 Agrees
burneside
burneside
19 Mar 2017 11:21

The cross-party Leave campaign was in no position to "pledge" anything, it could only give a vision of what would be possible if we left the EU.  It is up to the government, with Remainer Theresa May at the helm to negotiate the detail.  As for the disaffected amongst the 52%, a recent ICM poll found that 68% of voters want the government to get on with implementing the referendum result.  

5 Agrees
Lynne
Lynne
19 Mar 2017 12:43

So that £350  a week for the NHS on the side of the 'Leave' bus  was at best only a possibility and could even be, shock horror probe, a porkiesurprise

 

oh and er.........polls are accurate now then, are they?

burneside
burneside
19 Mar 2017 13:30

If you read the wording on the side of that bus it could only have ever been a suggestion, because the Leave campaign was not, and is not, the government.  Is it really that difficult to understand?

 

5 Agrees
Lynne
Lynne
19 Mar 2017 14:04

Well it seems it was for an awful lot of people...........

2 Agrees
burneside
burneside
19 Mar 2017 14:21

Only by Remoaners who can't accept the referendum result...

4 Agrees
Gary Taylor
Gary Taylor
19 Mar 2017 15:52

The result is one thing, burneside. The deal (or no deal) is another.

1 Agree
HuwMatthews2
HuwMatthews2
19 Mar 2017 21:22

Sooooo.....Is the protest about a deal that hasn't even been negotiated yet?

4 Agrees
Lynne
Lynne
20 Mar 2017 06:50

A deal may not have been negotiated yet but from the noises coming from the government it would seem they are looking at a deal of the hard Brexit kind. By doing that they are effectively ignoring the wishes of the 48.1% who voted to remain.

Whatever happened to that thing us Brits are famed for?

Compromise.  

roberta
roberta
20 Mar 2017 08:18

In 1975 I had to accept that we were going into the Common Market which I didnt vote for.The millions that lost that vote had to endure over 40yrs of something we didnt want. If it had stayed as it was and not conned us into  a Federal Europe Im sure this referendum would never had happened. Im sorry Lynne I respect a lot of what you say but this time I disagree strongly the sooner we are out the better, Im not stupid enough to think it will be plain sailing but Im sure the end product will be worth it. And just for the record I know quite a few under 40s that voted out.

6 Agrees
Lynne
Lynne
20 Mar 2017 08:37

And in all those 40+ years you and others who felt aggrieved with our membership of the EU (as it subsequently became) had the opportunity to hold rallies, marches, write letters to papers, lobby MPs etc in protest at what you thought was wrong. Some of you even formed your own party - UKIP. As was your right to do.

And just for the record I know a lot of over 40s that voted remain. 

 

 

Gary Taylor
Gary Taylor
20 Mar 2017 09:37

A hard Brexit was not something that many of the 52% would have wanted either, Lynne.

 

And while Nigel Farage may have called for a fresh referendum when he thought the country was about to vote to remain in the EU (by a similarly narrow margin, as it transpired, to the vote to leave) most of the public going on the march on Saturday will be hoping more to influence the considerations of the impending negotiations, rather than influence what may happen when the Government - one way or another - goes to the country again. 

 

To vote to leave the EU was a binary choice - in or out. But with all the talk during the campaigning about the models that other European countries adopted (e.g. Norway and Switzerland) which left their countries outside the EU but within the single European market, many leave voters would now be expecting our government to negotiate a similar path, that would disadvantage our country in the least way possible.

 

Such an arrangement has seemed further and further away however, in the run up to the triggering of Article 50, with even well considered (and well supported) Lords amendments (rights for EU residents to remain; a meaningful vote by Parliament) proposed and finally rejected by our Government and some opposition MPs. A hard and potentially painful Brexit now seems a likely outcome. This may suit some - however for many others a fairer and more pragmatic settlement which will help bind our nations rather than tear them apart should be the aim.

 

As you say Lynne, compromise - not a sign of weakness, but of good negotiation. 

 

 

4 Agrees
HuwMatthews2
HuwMatthews2
20 Mar 2017 14:25

If I wanted to negotiate any kind of deal would I:

a) be making noises that if I didn't get fair treatment I would walk away with nothing rather than leave with detrimental terms

or

b) tell the other party everything that I would give them and put this in place before negotiations began in the forlorn hope that they might be benificent in return.

I think it would probably be the former.

 

All this talk about 'hard brexit' is pure speculation by those who are following their own agenda e.g. SNP, Remainers etc.

4 Agrees
roberta
roberta
20 Mar 2017 14:32

29th March DDay Article 50 will be triggered Hallelujah !!!!

4 Agrees
roberta
roberta
20 Mar 2017 15:53

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1 Agree
Lynne
Lynne
20 Mar 2017 16:22
FredBassett
FredBassett
23 Mar 2017 11:30

Liberal leftists attempting to upset the majority democratic vote. Scared to death of the changes that may see huge benifits to our country. Like control of our borders and imigration, free world trade, closer ties with a Trump led America and a Putin led Russia instead of idiots like Angela Merkel and the Swedish ecconomic migrant loving government.

Ignore the mamby pamby, rainbow warrior, tree hugging, blame mental illness, terrorist sympathisers and lets make Britain Great again

2 Agrees
Lynne
Lynne
23 Mar 2017 11:45

Oh dear. Where do I begin? (and I did think about not gracing that posting above with a response but.....)

Did I imagine it or did quite a number of Conservatives campain for, and then (I assume) vote for, Remain.? Thought so.

Trump and Putin, quite understandably, will put their countries interests' first. Whether or not the UK (if the UK still exists) will benefit from that is anyone's guess.  What might those two gentleman wish to have in return?

 

And since when did those who have a care for the environment also have terrorist sympathies?

 

Those attending the march on Saturday will not be attempting to upset democracy. Quite the opposite.

They will be participating in it.

 

And should anyone wish to read up a little about free trade, brexit, the EU, tariffs, and WTO rules click on this link

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/brexit-explained/brexit-explained-10-things-know-about-world-trade-organization-wto   

1 Agree
burneside
burneside
23 Mar 2017 12:11

Really?

Here's a comment taken from the Unite for Europe Facebook page:

 

Need to keep making our voices heard. Brexit is wrong. It will hurt too many people. It will make us poorer intellectually, spiritually and financially and has no chance of ever making Britain "great" again. Let's stop it while we still can- come and shout loud in London on Saturday.

 

Supporters of Unite for Europe want to stop Brexit in its tracks.  So, please, stop spouting all that guff about participating in democracy.

3 Agrees
Lynne
Lynne
23 Mar 2017 12:16

Many have great concerns about what Brexit will mean for this country.

And they have a democratic right to express that opinion. 

2 Agrees
burneside
burneside
23 Mar 2017 12:24

To the point of expressing a wish to overturn the democratic vote?  As I said in a previous post, after the recent parliamentary votes Brexit is happening.  No amount of petulant marching will change that.  Why don't you and your ilk just respect democracy?

2 Agrees
Lynne
Lynne
23 Mar 2017 12:34

I expect there are a lot of people in this country expressing wishes that we didn't have a Tory government.  Some, further express these wishes by going on marches in London.   

The goverment may have been democratically elected, but the disaffected electorate have a democratic right to express their dissatisfaction with various government policies.

As far as I am concerned Brexit is no different.

 

Addendum: and I fully expect that if TM comes back from the EU with a deal that Brexiteers do not like then they too will be making their voices heard on the matter.

Who knows, they might even organise a march in London! 

 

3 Agrees
Gary Taylor
Gary Taylor
23 Mar 2017 12:55

Interesting article in the Wall Street Journal:

 

European Hopes Dim for a Brexit Trade Pact

Theresa May says no deal is better than a bad deal. Some in the EU see things the same way

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/european-hopes-dim-for-a-brexit-trade-pact-1490221914

 
burneside
burneside
23 Mar 2017 13:07

You have posted an article that is behind a paywall and unreadable.

Gary Taylor
Gary Taylor
23 Mar 2017 13:55

The Yanks sure know how to screw you over for a buck, don't they Burnside. Something the UK Government should be keenly aware of if (as the WSJ article concludes) Brexit negotiations end with us falling back on the 'no deal' WTO trading arrangements.

 

The webpage can be accessed on @WSJ on Twitter - if I can find an alternative working link I will post it to this thread.

 

 

Gary Taylor
Gary Taylor
23 Mar 2017 21:15

 

Interesting poll...

 

C7l19DHVUAIllMT

burneside
burneside
23 Mar 2017 22:17

We had the only poll that mattered on June 23rd last year.  You're sounding more like dim-Tim Farron with every passing day.

2 Agrees
Lynne
Lynne
24 Mar 2017 08:20

With the passage of time people's opinions can always change.

1 Agree
DEEDOODLE
DEEDOODLE
24 Mar 2017 09:01

The U.K. voted to leave the E.U. and that's what was on the label.

The only problem is that we still have a need to do trade with the european countries and they are all legally bound to the self appointed dictatorship that calls itself the European Union.

Like it or not we have decided to leave, but still have to stay in some twisted way to trade.

The only thing I can guarantee is that the self appointed bureaucrats of the E.U. are going to do everything in their power to make an example of us to the other E.U. members. Just to try and stop the domino effect that may well happen if we were to get an easy departure from membership and still retain a decent trade deal, etc, etc.

The next 2 years will certainly show, or not, the steel of our governement and how much they are inclined to actually work for their pay and the betterment of the U.K. population, something that has been sadly lacking for decades.

 

2 Agrees
Gary Taylor
Gary Taylor
24 Mar 2017 09:24

The vote on the 23rd June mattered, burneside - but nothing like as much as the difficult choices that now await our Government as a consequence. Pressing our representatives in power to put political dogma aside and do what is best for the prosperity and benefit of our country is a fundamental freedom which I hope many will exercise tomorrow.

4 Agrees
burneside
burneside
24 Mar 2017 10:09

@Lynne

Nine months since the referendum is no time at all, we haven't even started the Brexit negotiations for God's sake.  I suggest you wait a decade or two before revisiting this particular issue.  After all, the Brexiteers of 1975 had to wait four decades before they were given another chance.

3 Agrees
Lynne
Lynne
24 Mar 2017 10:22

@burnside

It isn't up to me when this issue gets revisited next.

It is up to the people of this country.

Could be next year.

Could be in 40 years time.

Could be never at all.

It's for the population to decide  - and I guess how the population will view things will depend on how things pan out. 

3 Agrees
FredBassett
FredBassett
24 Mar 2017 12:29

If your of the leftist liberal ilke like a few on here then you will be well aware of the tragic events of Wednesday afternoon in London  this week. Well Andrew Neil on the this week programme actually on the usually baised  BBC made the following opening speech. This is why the majority of out country voted to leave the EU watch and listen and take note because when the fight back starts you and your libral beliefs hugging your teddies etc might just get in the way

 

https://www.facebook.com/100007142027132/videos/1893833364198046/

4 Agrees
Gary Taylor
Gary Taylor
24 Mar 2017 14:41

Actually Fred, I think Andrew Neil speaks for 99.9% of the people in our country - from the left to the right, the North to the South.

 

Not just the 52%.

4 Agrees
ShyTalk 47
ShyTalk 47
25 Mar 2017 01:03

The two sides in this disagreement are begining to sound as 'flexible' as the folk of Northern Ireland.  Democracy nearly arrived there, eventually, and seems to be ebbing again like the tide.  But along the way we all suffered a huge amount of ear-bashing and bloodletting from the bigots of both sides.  {If we eventually declare full  'independence' from our near neighbours, Ulster will have a land border with European Eire.  More fireworks then?}  

 

Loud bigotry here in 'Little England' - triumphantly, insultingly, dismissing very nearly half the thinking electorate as Remoaners - is not going to help our negotiators achieve the new Independent Great Britain we are now commited to, if we cannot even carry Scotland and Ulster with us.  Didn't that liberal leftie Dave Cameron play a blinder?

 

Biased BBC?  Every political party that gets into power - and for the next half century that is probably only going to be the Tories -  says the Beeb is against them.  If you want your particular beliefs to be the 'truth', stick your fingers in your ears and instead read the Daily Mail, The Sun, The Times, The Telegraph, the Express, or even the Sport.   Then you will appreciate their marvellous reporting balance, as dictated by their rich, largely off-shore, owners.  No?  Oh, you are aready doing that aren't you?

 
2 Agrees
burneside
burneside
25 Mar 2017 12:31

  If you want your particular beliefs to be the 'truth', all you need to do is watch BBC and Channel 4 news, or read the The Guardian and Independent.  

1 Agree
ShyTalk 47
ShyTalk 47
25 Mar 2017 13:23

Burneside:

I read only the Daily Mail and the Telegraph, every day, cover to cover (bar the sport).  I've had a good enough education to look past the propoganda they both peddle, and balance it with my own life experience, and broadcaster's information from as wide a variety of sources as I can access (even Murdoch's Sky News!).  I've traveled much of our world (1st and 3rd) to broaden my outlook, and as a result really appreciate what a wonderful country this is, both in and probably eventually out of Europe.

I'm not naive enough to believe I've ever found 'truth'.  Its mostly bigots who are sure of that.

3 Agrees
burneside
burneside
25 Mar 2017 15:24

We'll always be in Europe, just not in the EU.

3 Agrees
ShyTalk 47
ShyTalk 47
25 Mar 2017 23:48

Ten out of ten in the geography test.   We in Britain are of course in Europe.  And an awful lot of us want to stay here despite the many negatives.

This is getting tedious.  Over and out - in every sense!

2 Agrees
HuwMatthews2
HuwMatthews2
26 Mar 2017 06:10

Just got up to read that the Remainers on the London March pushed their placards into the fence surrounding the Police Memorial which was adorned with flowers in respect of Keith Palmer who lost his life during the Westminster attack.

 

Unbelievable! Although I know that all Remainers are not involved; just as all Muslims are not involved in Jihad.....Those that did this are just vile scum.

Lynne
Lynne
26 Mar 2017 07:19

And I saw a tv picture showing the crowd yesterday holding a minutes silence of respect.

Many took small bunches of flowers to place at the makeshift memorial opposite parliament.

 

For what it is worth I'd laid a quiet bet to myself yesterday that if, one way or the other,  there was anything negative to report about the march then certain newspapers would be sure to highlight it.

 

And my thoughts now re this thread are the same as expressed by ShyTalk47 in her/his last two sentences in their posting above.

     

 

2 Agrees
Gary Taylor
Gary Taylor
26 Mar 2017 10:44
2 Agrees
b.o.liking
b.o.liking
26 Mar 2017 11:59

Leaving E.U. Not a  the Common Market as sold by Ted  Heath Gravy Train and dictatorships over. 

 

 

4 Agrees
burneside
burneside
26 Mar 2017 14:24

@ShyTalk47

I agree.  It is very tedious trying to have a dialogue with Remoaners who totally fail to understand the difference between the continent of Europe, and a failing political organisation called the EU.  

5 Agrees
burneside
burneside
26 Mar 2017 14:27

At least all the particiapants on the march yesterday had a jolly nice walk in the London sunshine, even if they did manage to achieve absolutely sod all.

3 Agrees
Gary Taylor
Gary Taylor
27 Mar 2017 17:38

large

4 Agrees
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