General Discussion
Open letter to the Dawlish Gazette:
In last Wednesday’s Gazette, Central Devon MP Mel Stride explained why in the forthcoming referendum he favours remaining in the European Union. Although he is not uncritical of the EU, he says: "The choice on the ballot paper doesn't ask whether the EU is perfect, how flawed it is or whether we love it or not - rather it asks whether our country will be better off staying within or saying farewell".
This view is reflected by the MP for Totnes, Dr Sarah Wollaston, who has recently quit the Leave campaign to vote Remain. Dr Wollaston - who chairs the health select committee - said the claim that Brexit would free up £350m a week for the NHS "simply isn't true". But while she has exposed the lie about a Brexit dividend, what should also be considered is that immigration has provided untold benefits in maintaining services within the NHS over the years.
We are yet to hear from our own MP Anne-Marie Morris, how leaving the EU [as she would wish] impact on already creaking local services, but one thing is for sure - the NHS would be in worse shape, unless deeper cuts followed elsewhere.
Vote Leave leaders admit to a short term shock to the economy following Brexit - but offer no guarantee things would get better. Without a clear way forward, confidence in the investment the country needs will diminish, raising the prospect of further recession.
There is little doubt that EU reform is needed, however such changes would seem best tackled from a position of strength, in partnership with those many nations who share our concerns and values.
The evidence is compelling - we would be stronger by continuing to remain within the European Union. Whether or not the United Kingdom agrees, we will know only too soon.
What a load of baloney. The EU is unreformable. Cameron begged his way around the EU table recently, and came away with crumbs. Brexit is the only answer, and then the EU will have an uphill struggle to prevent other nations from leaving too. With or without Brexit, the EU is heading towards the rocks, I give it five years max.
If that's the case Burneside, we might as well just sit on our hands for those five years. At least we'd be spared the economic shock that the Vote Leave leaders are admitting will result from Brexit.
The Leave camp admit that there will be a shock and economists think it will take until 2030 to recover. What did you think those years will be like until we do recover? What do you think the government will do to try and aid recovery quicker?
I'd rather we get out now, with some kind of orderly exit, than wait until it all goes tits-up.
Seems it's not only DC who is thinking the impossible about pensions. Here is what Vote Leave's IDS has had to say recently:
After resigning his post as work and pensions secretary, Iain Duncan Smith called for a rethink of the triple lock due to intergenerational unfairness.
He said: 'We have a triple lock on pensions which I was proud to do six years ago, but with inflation running at zero, we really need to look at things like this and ask “do we just keep saying it’s working age [people] who bear the brunt [of cuts].’
Also saw this on Facebook. You know, a "copy and paste job". 😘
Well that's it then.
If the Sun says Out, then that is the way it will be.
Really, does anybody (apart from it brain dead readers) take any notice of that joke of a 'newspaper'?
supports LeaveI wonder how many of OUTers will be on here complaining about the Government in the next few years if we do actually leave the EU, about the fact the economy is in the toilet and they haven't done anything that they thought they would.
Wake up, being out of the EU will not solve all the problems. It just breeds uncertainty and that isn't good for the economy.
Also, the BBC using Migrant Watch UK as an independent source for immigration stats "again" is disgraceful.
But we CAN change things inside the EU.
I wasn't alive in an era without the UK being in the EU so I can't say what it was like before but I know looking back 40+ years is not the way forward
And now the government has been accused of passing its contacts book to the Remain side so they can try to get businesses to influence their employees:
Stunned company bosses have spoken of their shock at receiving begging emails from No 10 advisers asking them to sign a letter backing the Stronger In campaign and to give over details about their staff.
... One boss told the Sun: “I’m interested to know why they thought it was ok to share my email address with Stronger In without asking my permission.”
Cameron and the Remain camp are now so desperate they are haemorraging support for their lost cause, that they are resorting to every little dirty trick in the book. I hope Cameron is packing his bags ready to vacate Downing Street on the 24th.
Im seeing posts in the socialmedia from people who have emigrated to Europe (why are they calledex-pats, surely they are immigrants) saying they are voting for remain, so why have they left the UK then ?? most have said they will never return and have been living there 10yrs or more. Why should they have a vote???
It strikes me that all the parties have said we cannot manage without the E.U. then it stands that if we choose to
leave, then these politicians will be unable to govern the decision of the people.
My hunch is the E.U.politicians will not accept an Exit from Europe Be Warned.
I can't believe I am saying this but I agree with you roberta. You get a vote if you left the country in the last 15 years, this is crazy to me.
I persoanlly don't believe that they should be allowed to vote in any UK election or referendum. However as it stands they are, and it's understandable why they might more understand the benefits of us being in the EU than the demographic that The Sun is appealing to would do.
Are foreign nationals currently living in the UK allowed to vote in this referendum? I guess not, but does anyone know?
From the BBC ...
British, Irish and Commonwealth citizens over 18 who are resident in the UK, along with UK nationals living abroad who have been on the electoral register in the UK in the past 15 years. Members of the House of Lords and Commonwealth citizens in Gibraltar will also be eligible, unlike in a general election. Citizens from EU countries - apart from Ireland, Malta and Cyprus - will not get a vote.
George Osborne's threat today is, 'vote out and I'll cut £30B in an ad-hoc budget'.
Well you can threaten the British people all you want, you silly little man.
We are voting out regardless. You and Cameron will be forced out of office by your own party that is for Brexit.
OUT!
What did you think the government are going to do if the UK vote to leave? It doesn't take a genius to realise they are going to make cuts.
The leave side claiming they will continue to fund those in receipt of EU funding until 2020 - well of course because it will take a while to actually leave the EU. Plus this is only a commitment until 2020. The affect of leaving won't be felt for a couple of years if the government doesn't make cuts.
The leave side said a new settlement would be possible by May 2020. This will be a few difficult years even if you believe this date.
We have now moved on from Project Fear to Project Terror. I heard Osborne on the radio earlier, he is seriously crapping himself. My only worry is that this ploy will have the desired effect on the undecided voters, and it is they who will now influence the outcome of the referendum.
Incidentally, over 50 Tory MPs have already signed a declaration vowing to bring down the governnment should Osborne try to introduce this revenge budget.
Just received leaflets through the post from both sides, the stronger in with expert opinion and the leave promoting the Brexit movie. No facts in their leaflet just a link to a propaganda film!
I hope his tactics work burneside and then the Tories implode and we get a better government through it.
Whatever the outcome of the referendum, I cannot see how the Conservative party will be able to continue to govern until 2020. IMO, neither DC or BoJo would be able enjoy sufficient support to win through any 'no confidence' vote.
An early general election seems inevitable.
@roberta, since dave went to brussels to get a better deal for britain, got absolutely sod all and then still says vote in.
Just a total pr!ck.
He is a prick and his mate Osbourne but that doesn't mean he doesn't make the odd good point or do the odd good thing.
Apparently, EU president (and drunkard) Jean-Claude Juncker is visiting Britain next week in a last desperate attempt to keep us in the EU. I hope the Brexiters give him the welcome he deserves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPgiI46FCDU
Roberta /Paul why can't you call osborne and cameron a number 1 or a number 2's.instead of all this filthy
potty mouth about Pricks.Although i'm sure your right. Speaking of which it must be time to wheel out
Antony Lynton Blair who, we in Great Britain should be thankful was not our wartime leader.
I think that Remain/Leave are ALL talking crap.
Please, everyone, THINK FOR YOURSELF and not listen to your MP in what they think or the tabloids like the SUN.
Do you really need to let someone else make your mind up for you regardless of WHAT party you vote for?
NO political party will gain from this so how can any politician make promises as to what will happen if we leave or remain?
THINK FOR YOURSELF for once.
Let sense prevail
You know Carer, I agree with you. The problem is lot's of people can't make up thier minds and that's a shame whether it be for leave or remain, whichever way it goes I for one will not complain. I'm sure some of you know which way I will vote. I've had enough of all these debates with the same questions and answers. One last thing though watching the news tonight George Osbourn verbally made the threat that taxes will go up. Should that happen it will be a punitive tax for being a naughty population for voting OUT and how dare you defy your Government. However should the remain prevail Brussels will come down on us so hard for defying us, the rich elite of the EU. The unelected elete.
Carer, Spot on i dont believe the poloticians understand Europe and the public certainly dont it is down to THINK FOR YOURSELF and vote as you think fit.
@Morty Vicker. i posted that before i heard about the mp. absolutely dreadful, the husband now has to tell the children mummy’s not coming back and you will never see her again.
Social media has been awash tonight with people blaming Brexit voters for today's events, and now, not surprisingly, Polly Toynbee in The Guardian has joined the fray. Not much sign of respect from those people.
Now then how do we all think our locally elected councillors will vote then. We already know about Gary as he is the only one who has the guts to comment on here. What about the rest though you know the ones that vote in favour of 1000 new houses for Dawlish but got no agreements in writing from the proposed developers and land owners regarding infrastructure including the link road. Will they do whats good and right for Britain and vote OUT or will they support upper class greed, deception and outright lies and sail their country down the swanny like they do for the town they represent at TDC and vote IN. Would be nice to know how many traitors we have on our councils
Are you sure you want to leave that last posting of yours up, Fred?
I have asked Webmaster to close this thread out of respect to the memory of Jo Cox MP who was, for the avoidance of doubt, an active supporter of the Remain campaign.
But feel free to start a thread of your own.
Before then, a brief statement below and message from her husband:
Jo Cox was shot and stabbed repeatedly near Birstall Library, West Yorkshire, just before she was due to hold an advice surgery there at 1pm. In a statement, Brendan Cox said: "Today is the beginning of a new chapter in our lives. More difficult, more painful, less joyful, less full of love. I and Jo's friends and family are going to work every moment of our lives to love and nurture our kids and to fight against the hate that killed Jo.
I hope the webmaster refuses your request, the EU referendum is still taking place next week and still needs to be debated. You do not own this thread.
Love the way Gary sides with the ones in this mornings press trying to put the blame for this tradgedy on Brexit supporters. With all due respect to her family and friends would it not be more prudent to look closer to home for who or what was behind this. This present government cabinet cannot be trusted. Brings back memories of Lady Dianna
This thread isn't a "debate", it's just an excuse to type post after post full of hate-filled, conspiracy-ridden bile from those who have no respect for the true values that makes this country great. Those values being compassion, empathy, peace and tolerance. The likes of Burneside and Fred Bassett and their friends at UKIP, BNP and Britain First make me sick.
Well, Mrs C, you make me sick too, so that kinda evens things up. And please refrain from trying to link me with the organisations you mentioned.
@ MV
glad we make you sick in which case you know what to do, as you have been told to do many times before.
Go troll some other forum
Brexit isn't to blame.
The link is made because Britain First supporters are more than likely Brexit supporters but that doesn't mean all Brexit supporters are Britain First supporters.
It appears Tommy Mair at least did support Britain First in some form https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13445759_1341437265883917_3440640343973826024_n.jpg?oh=91e98f8e5d650f28b15e31010702210e&oe=57C4BF49
The Remain camp started their campaign with Project Fear, and are now finishing with Project Grief. The speed with which they have exploited the death of Jo Cox is truly appalling and nauseating. They are utterly shameless.
That is utter bollocks. No one is taking advantage. Both sides have suspended campaigning and won't contest the bi election for Jo's seat when the time comes.
You cannot have been reading the press, or social media today. In fact, the Remain campaign will tomorrow be setting up stalls with books of condolences, and allowing activists to leaflet as normal. That doesn't sound very much like suspending activities to me.
Both sides said they would suspend for yesterday and today. So yes they will be back campaigning tomorrow.
Nowhere near as appalling and nauseating as Farages use yesterday morning of Nazi imagery to promote fear amongst the brainwashed.
I hope, though it's definitely said more in hope rather than expectation, that the remaining few days of this referendum campaign are carried out with at least a modicum of dignity from those involved.
Re Mrs C's post at 14.24 today takes my breath away! Of all people on this forum she is the one who is full of hate filled bile, as she has demonstrated time and again over the years! And before she casts insidious inuendoes about my late post, as she normally does, I will just say that I have worked a 60 hour week this week which is why I am late responding to this thread. What a vile evil person she is and we would all be better off if she was once again banned from this forum.
It would be Godwins Law if UKIPs vile poster wasn't actually inspired by a Nazi propoganda image/film. Which it is.
So this is what "debate" is all about? A woman who wants censorship of opinion, and a dog that posts AgreeBait. Excellent.
Can Somebody tell me, unless I missed It, seeing that Consertive, Liberal, UKIP are not contesting the By election are Labour going to?
Have not heard anything from them.
MV whatever you did as Mrs C I haven’t seen anything on here to warrant a ban. Apart from asking questions of the Brexit camp and the right wing!
I think we can now say he is far right scum http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36567005?post_id=10207274237793188_10209885345869258#_=_
"Social media has been awash tonight with people blaming Brexit voters for today's events" burneside
Yes, it will be grossly unjust if the heinous actions of this extremist murderer bear any reflection on Brexit voters. Just like it is when the heinous actions of an extremist Islamist are blamed on Muslims. See it for what it is, don't use it as confirmation bias either way.
I fear the Remain side could win this referendum now, they are ruthlessly exploiting the death of this woman for their own ends, it's like manna from heaven for them.
@burneside - you seem to be the one exploiting it more than anyone on this forum. For someone so bullish about the outcome of this referendum you have been calling foul at every stage along the way.
@burneside no one is exploiting this. Stop saying it! It is not true. Campaigning is suspended until tomorrow by both sides.
@burneside you seem to be setting up a convenient excuse for the Brexit camp losing on Thursday and that is sick.
The Remain camp has had the benefit of the entire government machine behind it, and their campaign budget was, in effect, more than doubled to over £16million. That is hardly a level playing field is it? I sincerely hope Leave does win as it will show the people's voice is stronger than the Establishment.
You are incredibly naïve if you think campagning has been suspended, are you not reading the press or social media? They might say it has been officially suspended, but that is far from the truth.
FFS more excuses lined up for when Brexit lose on Thursday.
We will stay in because it is better for the country.
Leaving will only see the rise of the right in this country.
Leaving might actually mean we see a bit of democracy in this country, that is why the Establishment is running scared.
Because the Remain campaign has been so positive hasn't it? Project Fear....Project Terror...Project Grief
There is no "Project Grief". You disgust me and, I'd imagine, most right-minded people, with that vile comment. A lady has been murdered by a person who was easily influenced by the likes of you with your vitriol and your toxic comments. And you have the gall to come on here and talk about a "Project Grief"??????? Cowardly and beyond contempt.
Get over yourself, you stupid bint.
The Remainiacs have been all over social media milking Jo Cox's death for all it's worth. It is they who are the contemptible rabble.
"Stupid bint". Are they the kind of abusive words that you use when you Tweet MPs? The likes of you are dragging our country into the gutter and then into the sewer. You wouldn't dare use words like that to people's faces, yet think it's acceptable to be so toxic on social media. The likes of you have brought reasonable debate into contempt. Thank god most normal people aren't like you.
Of course you will. Like you did last time...
Your threats are nothing but cowardly words from a cowardly social inadequate. You'll be calling me a traitor as well, I assume?
@burneside you are so wrong. No one is taking advantage. Tributes to Jo and what she stood for is not project grief.
I stand by every word I have said, and retract nothing. And if we are talking traitors, then Ted Heath was the biggest traitor of modern times for lying through his teeth when he conned us into the Common Market in 1973.
Nice words from the Vicar of St Gregory's Parish Church based around the earlier reading from the letter of Paul to the Galatians (3.23 - 29) regarding the increasingly divisive and vitriolic battle lines drawn during the referendum debate:
"As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ; There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male or female - nor Brexit, nor Remain - for all of you are one in Christ Jesus..."
And for those of us who do not believe in an imaginary wizard in the sky, that is utter claptrap.
With most euro countries heading for bankruptcy or civil war or both. Facing the formation of a fake and weak joint EU defence force, shared laws, banking and taxation rules. The prospect of millions of Turks and other uncivilised ecconomic migrants invading their countries to destroy their soveriegn, historical and social idividualities. Not to mention that their entire lives will in future be ruled by a Fedral unelected and unaccountable council made up of self interested trough guzzelers the likes of the smack head Bob Geldof and the Lunatic Angela Merkel.
WHY would any sane person want to remain amongst such an absolute nightmare in the making, and how could they justify this to their children and grandchidren. The only way to avoid the total destruction of our own country is to vote leave.
If any remainers out there can give one proven reason for staying. Then please lets hear it, and not the usual dribble.
@burneside & @S,
I don't normally do God myself, with visits to Church normally reserved for births, marriages, deaths and commemorations.
The underlying symbolism, as I understand it, is one of tolerance. This is exactly the human quality currently most lacking in the referendum debate - and which will be most in need once this week is over.
I wouldn't look at a 2000 year book, written by 43 different authors over 1600 years to give me advice myself
Actually S, it wasn’t advice I was seeking, but solace. As it turned out this came from an unexpected source.
An eighty-something year-old Scottish lady called Janet was wheeling herself through the church gates as I arrived at St Greg’s - so we chatted. It turned out that she was recovering from a brain tumour operation and had recently been to see her NHS consultant.
Unfearful of the consequences and wanting a truthful diagnosis she had told the consultant: "she was ready to meet her Maker”.
“The Lord has more work for you to do, Janet…” the consultant was said to have replied.
Funny old thing, faith.
Peace be with you.
The remain camp really are useless all they can say is we should stay in and fix the EU. You've had 40 years and it's only got worse and currently getting rapidly worse.
Thankfully this referendum has given us the chance to use some sense and get the hell out.
Vote OUT and save our beloved country whilst we still have time.
OK replace advice with solace in my comment ;-)
I don't think this is the right thread to have a discussion on God but you brought him into it :-)
Will you be singing the National Anthem along with the England crowd during tonight's footie, S? Seems He is omnipresent...
As an Atheist, I don't sing the National Anthem.
Even if there was a God, he is not even worthy of worship. Kings 2:23-24 "23: From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” 24: He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys."
God sent 2 bears to kill 42 children for calling someone baldy! There are plenty of other examples of this in the bible.
Jeremy Corbyn says we should stay in the EU and oppose a trade deal between the US and EU.
What about leaving the EU and setting up our own trade deal with the US?
TTIP - no thanks!! Whether you are a leaver or a remainer you should be against this. If we leave and the UK wanted something similar, which they probably will, it will mean privatisation of the NHS which is the Tory party aim.
@Gary Taylor - why would I be against you singing it?
Carlos Velasco Carballo is the ref (who isn't bald)
EDIT: Gary you seem to have deleted your comment that this was in response to?
I've read a few articles about the TTIP.
Some aims are
Opening up the US to EU firms.
Helping cut red tape that firms face when exporting.
Setting new rules to make it easier and fairer to export, import and invest overseas.
Sounds like a pretty good idea to me, but this you oppose.
However we do need to be out of the EU, so we can negotiate our own trade deal with the US on our own terms.
Vote OUT!
Anyone organising a big leave celebration party over the weekend in Dawlish. Think we need a big beer tent and some live music on the Lawn, plus a live video link to Downing street showing Dodgy Dave and Georgy Porgy leaving for Brussels, closely followed by a few coach loads of left wing loonies like Geldof and Corbin. Good luck losers and good ridance.
Everyone get their Union Jack flags out ready and that includes the TDC lot.
Sorry, S. You will know from my PM that this was the message I deleted. It just got in the way of a very good debate (within a debate) about TTIP - which will need very careful handling, as you have rightly observed.
Please don't mind me if I do join in, S.
But I won't be indulging in the refrain: 'Your not singing anymore' if we go ahead in what may be a very close contest.
Talking of baldy, who's reffing tonight?
Are you feeling ok Fred? You sound a bit delusional. You might want to get that checked out :-)
I fear Remain are going to win this now, they have been shamelssly exploiting Project Grief for all it's worth, and that has taken its toll on the Leave campaign.
@Paul so you are against the EU but happy for the US to take jobs away? As mcjrpc said you should go read about TTIP and see how this is a terrible thing.
@burneside there you go with your project grief crap again. Remain will win because it makes sense on so many levels that have already been discussed.
Do you not look at social media? There's even a Twitter hashtag #remainforjo, if that is not exploitation then what is?
And of course, Cameron has also been accused of getting in on the act:
http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/19/david-cameron-used-jo-coxs-death-to-campaign-for-remain-5953570/
Our own trade deal with the US is what we need, which we can do when we are out.
@FredBassett, great post.
@burneside, keep the 'faith', mate. we are out.
I got Thursday and Friday off.
Thursday to save our country by voting OUT!
Friday to pick up my winnings and head to pub to celebrate.
Are we not to mention Jo and what her beliefs were. Her sister even mentioned it, "Focus on that which unites us and not which divides us". There is no organised campaign to take advantage.
If it was a UKIP MP killed I am sure Farage would have been stood in front of a billboard within 48 hours.
Its the other way round for jobs isent it. Havent Boing just announced they will be moving their European HQ to Britain shortly. Rock on Trump for president
The EU has admitted that TTIP will probably cause unemployment as jobs switch to the US, where labour standards and trade union rights are lower. It has even advised EU members to draw on European support funds to compensate for the expected unemployment.
Examples from other similar bi-lateral trade agreements around the world support the case for job losses. The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) between the US, Canada and Mexico caused the loss of one million US jobs over 12 years, instead of the hundreds of thousands of extra that were promised.
Let's be like the US and have little workers rights and a buffoon in charge. Trump and Johnson what a pair they would be!!
@S we know the eu is s**t, that's why we are all voting out.
Then we can get our own trade deals with whoever we want.
You only have to look at the evidence; until last Thursday the Leave campaign had a healthy lead in the polls, and now they don't. And we all know why.
@S, i'm all for trade deals. just outside of the failed eu.
Have the polls ever been right?
Remember the general election the polls were saying it was neck and neck between Cameron and Miliband.
When we knew the Tories were going to win, since we all wanted Cameron's EU referendum, so we can vote out.
Come Friday some of my tax will still be going to the ruddy EU, but at least there will be some light at the end of tunnel.
Vote OUT and end this EU farce.
The cabinet part of the government are backing TTIP the same as they are backing staying in the EU but we all know they will be forced to resign come Friday as their positions will become untenable. It will then be down to the Conservative party to form a new cabinet or call a general election. The one worry not discussed so far is the prospect of mass civil disruption should remain win. This weekend will either be one of celebration as I hope or one of more bloodshed which I fear.
And of course, Fred, as you have been a model of reconciliation in all of this, there will be no blood on your hands.
This thread has been closed.