General Discussion

A questionable butterfly

People

Plod
Cavinpakar
Markjones918
Jej67@hotmail.co.uk
hyde
davidmalan777
Diana Mond
Hinotekmachines
jc
Pamhamill57
1225
83
majorp
majorp
01 Sep 2017 19:28

Some weeks ago I wrote to our MP, It was to do with parking tickets issued by the new machines that are being used in place of the older type machines that do not require your registration number ( VRM).

I noticed on the ticket were the words, "NOT TRANSFERABLE". Now does anyone on here have any idea exactly what is meant by those two words?

The MP has not replied, so I looked on line and see that our MP is almost the worst out of over 600 MP's for replying to emails. What does that say about our MP?

1 Agree
leatash
leatash
01 Sep 2017 19:37

It is a offence to transfer the ticket to another vehicle, so you buy a ticket for two hours but after 45 mins you return to your car and leave the parking place 1.25 hours left you play the good samaritan and give it to a driver just entering the car park thats when it becomes a offence the ticket is not transferable.  Most tickets you purchase to park have those words on them and you can be issued with a FPN if you ignore the warning, and a lot of drivers fall foul of this regulation.

2 Agrees
majorp
majorp
02 Sep 2017 00:28

That is exactly why I am asking our MP---Is it a money making scam? FPN (Fixed Penalty Notice) is issued by the police or by a local authourity where a bylaw has been violated. PCN (Penalty Charge Notice) is issued by a local authority, usually for a parking violation. PCN very similar in name to the other PCN (Parking Charge Notice) is an invoice from a private parking company, like those crook's that operate at Sainbury's and the Coop here in Dawlish. Beware of ghost tikets from them. I do remember someone on here claiming they have never had a ticket in their life. Maybe the oportunity to get one is on the horizon. Oh! they are the dirty operators at Sainbury's and the Coop.

1 Agree
leatash
leatash
02 Sep 2017 09:33

I have never had a ticket its not rocket science just abide by the law park legally dont speed etc etc. Its not a money making scam its in the terms and conditions of most car parks when you purchase a ticket.  Sainsburys have to have conditions for parking as do motorway services and they are normaly maximum stay ,why because otherwise no one would ever move, take the Coop it would turn into a residents car park for those like me living in the town centre with no parking. So life is simple if it says 2hr max stay dont stay for more, if your ticket expires in 2 hrs put a reminder on your phone, double yellows stay of them, max speed 30 dont exceed it etc etc if you break the rules expect a ticket 

2 Agrees
majorp
majorp
02 Sep 2017 11:24

Why is it an offence to transfer your ticket? they say that by transfering a ticket it makes the ticket invalid---Why if there is still credit left on it.

Just like leatash is sticking to the rules/regulations/law/directions,or so he/she say's, so must authorities.

There is nothing in law that says you cannot transfer your ticket, so why do the authorities say you can't, that is the scam.

Another point. No change given is on many machines, now I do know the reason for that. But fancy going into a shop to buy goods which cost a £1 but you only have a fiver.????

1 Agree
leatash
leatash
02 Sep 2017 11:35

You cant transfer your ticket because its in the terms and conditions that you agree to when you enter the car park. All car parks owned and run by local authorities are the same and these regulations are allowed by a act of parliament so its perfectly legal. So to verify you enter a car park and by purchasing a ticket you agree to the terms and conditions one of which is the ticket is non transferrable if you dont like the terms and conditions dont park there. These terms and conditions will stand up in court there have been lots of cases that have gone to the high cort and the Authorities always win.

2 Agrees
majorp
majorp
02 Sep 2017 19:45

leatash, don't you know the difference between on and off street parking? I only mentioned Sainsbury's and the Coop to explain the difference between a FPN, a PCN and the other PCN 

What Act of parliament are you talking about and what cases are you also talking about? I am sure we would all like to know.

1 Agree
leatash
leatash
02 Sep 2017 19:58

The same terms and conditions apply Devon County for on street Teighnbridge for car parks these terms and conditions came into force when parking was decriminalised by a act of parliament, as you will know parking illegaly used to be a criminal offence And believe me i more than most know the difference between on and off street parking. 

1 Agree
majorp
majorp
03 Sep 2017 11:53

leatash,  Who made those terms and conditions and are they legal terms and conditions?I have my doubts. Where in law does it say you cannot transfer a ticket, and for what purpose if it was there is it for. There is in most cases a law to cover everything. My take rightly or wrongly, putting those two words on a parking ticket, is to give authorities an indirect way of raising extra revenue. Now that is illegal for on street parking purposes. If you have another reason why an on street parking ticket cannot be transfered, then please let me know, so that I can anylise it and see if it fits your reasons. You have raised an issue that the same terms apply to Devon County Council and Teignbridge District Council, but you did not give a reason why the same terms apply. Now Teignbridge can do it because they can do whatever they like with the money raised from parking in their car parks. But Devon County Council is a different kettle of fish because they cannot do exactly what they like, (although they try too) hoping that no one will notice their wrong doing. Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, will tell you exactly what on street raised parking revenue can be used for. Parking charges for instance must only be set at a level where too much of a revenue raised income is not generated. But off street parking can be set as they like. But, and here is the but, because both authorities try to work in partnership, they try and keep their charges on the same level. I will be very interested to see what you have to say on this subject.

1 Agree
leatash
leatash
03 Sep 2017 15:31

A hobby of mine because of my background is fighting tickets issued for on road and of road offences.  The terms and conditions came into force as i have already explained when parking was decriminalised and put in the hands of civilian authorities prior to decrim the Police controlled on street parking. Now all the info is in the bill that was passed at decrim about 6,000 plus pages.  So up to date have not lost a case against a civilian authority but would not take on a not transferable case its already been tried and failed at great cost.  My personal view is you purchase a ticket and in essence rent the parking space for 1 or 2 hours BEAR WITH ME  so if you leave the space early the rent has been payed so why not hand the ticket to another driver. Because the terms and conditions dont allow you to do this the space is rented two three four times because folk leave early now i think this is wrong and it is but civil law is complex and up to date the not transferable rules apply and are enforced. 

3 Agrees
Lynne
Lynne
03 Sep 2017 17:07

Can one of you explain please why it is that in some car parks you take a ticket when you go in and then pay whatever amount is due for the amount of time you have stayed in the car park when you leave, whereas for other car parks you pay at the beginning of your stay for, say, 2 hours, even if you only use the space for 1 hour?  

majorp
majorp
03 Sep 2017 18:06

leatash, You keep refering to the terms and conditions, what terms and conditions, where can they be found? You also mention a bill, what bill? And where in that bill can it be found?

And to Lynne.

Usually you pay when you go out because that car park is usually manned. If it wasn't manned, chaos could pursue if someone did not have the means to get out, (No cash, No card, No nothing) so the attendant would help you out.

Pay as you enter is so that they do not need an attendant on site, but they still have ceo's stalking to see who has over run their stay. Some off street car parks have cameras but not all to see what is going on at various levels if it is a multistore car park. Local athorities are not permitted to enforce anything with cameras, whether by CCTV or ANPR.

Unless we know whether it is a privately owned car park or a local authority owned car park, I cannot comment any further.

1 Agree
Lynne
Lynne
03 Sep 2017 18:23

Sorry but I have been in some car parks whereby you take a ticket as you go in and the barrier rises so that you can do so.

Then, when you wish to leave you find the nearest paying machine within the car park to where your car is parked and pay the amount required. Then you take your ticket that has now been through the paying machine and then when you reach the barrier you insert it and the barrier rises and off you go.

A variation on that is number plate recognition when you enter the car park. When you wish to leave you type in your reg. number into the machine and it tells you how much to pay. You pay the amount and then when you get to the barrier your reg number is recognised and the barrier rises letting you leave.  

 

No staff needed.

 

So I ask again - why do some car parks operate on a pay for as long as you actually stay basis whilst others operate a pay for as long as you think you might be staying? (which might turn out to be shorter or longer than you anticipated).  

leatash
leatash
03 Sep 2017 19:31

Well if i give that information my services will no longer be required will they as you will all know how to get rid of that annoying ticket the answers are in my posts but you will have to do a few weeks reading.  As already mentioned all this stems from the decrim of parking and the introduction of civilian enforcement and that didnt happen without legislation a act of parliament. Thats it finished on the subject.

1 Agree
majorp
majorp
03 Sep 2017 19:57

In my opinion, leatash is a fraudster. He has produced nothing of any substance or any proof of the facts he purports to be there. I have asked him several questions and he has answered none of them.

Very suspicious in my mind. How can anyone know of his services if you tell us nothing about yourself or how to contact you.

Lynne asked a question, I tried to answer it in the best way I could. I did not know who was operating those car parks that Lynne was refering too. There are many types of off street car parks. leatash made no comment on Lynnes request, is that because he knows nothing so he has decided to finish with with this debate.

1 Agree
majorp
majorp
09 Sep 2017 09:42

Confirmed, that writing "Not transferable" on a parking ticket is not enforceable. So if you wish to be a good samaritan, feel free to pass your unexpired ticket to someone else. Even if you use a machine where you have to punch in your reg number. 

BUT HOW MANY WILL? And more to the point, how many will accept an unexpired ticket? 

It was/is a scam from the day it started.

1 Agree
DEEDOODLE
DEEDOODLE
09 Sep 2017 12:44

In my opinion the local councils use the pay and display machines on the basis that there is more chance of being able to make more money from people who overstay. More so in a location where people are enjoying themselves on holiday and getting back to the car on time is not their first priority.

I would say that they were losing money because people who were leaving were offering their unexpired tickets to people arriving. So they spent OUR money to buy the new machines so:-

 

1) The ticket would be identified to the original car and allow the fine to be imposed.

2) They now have parking ticket machines that allow credit card ticket purchases.

3) Totally confuse quite a lot of people on how to purchase a ticket!

 

Interesting article:-

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4835050/Parking-firm-took-lawyer-85-fine-lost.html

 

 

Diana Mond
Diana Mond
09 Sep 2017 17:47

Majorp - where was this confirmed please. Would be interested to read more. 

majorp
majorp
09 Sep 2017 20:33

Diana Mond

There is nothing in the TRO that say's you cannot transfer your ticket. If it is not in the TRO then it cannot be enforced, no matter what it say's on the ticket.

You cannot do certain things and those certain things have to be in the TRO, if they are not there, then you can do it. For instance; if you get a ticket for parking under the conker tree on the lawn and that is not in the TRO to make it an offence, then if you were to challege it, you would win.

There is no code for that offence, althought they might try and use the code for an invalid ticket, but how they will prove that is debatable.

And thirdly, there is nothing in the RTRA 1984 that say's you cannot transfer your ticket.

Keep your eye on the minutes of Devon County Council meetings not the rubbish you get from DTC.

You can get all of this information online if you know where to look and more importantly, know what you are looking for.

1 Agree
Diana Mond
Diana Mond
09 Sep 2017 21:09

Thanks for the info majorp. Could you please post a link to the info for us to all have a read. Thanks. 

leatash
leatash
09 Sep 2017 23:30

(7) Any Parking Device or Permit issued in accordance with the foregoing provisions of this Article shall remain the property of the Council and Parking Devices or Permit shall not be transferable between vehicles and shall be valid only at the Parking Place in respect of which the Parking Device or Permits was issued unless the Parking Device or Permits expressly provides that it may be transferred between Parking Places (8) The Council may reserve in any Parking Place such spaces as it may from time to time determine for the exclusive use of persons who have previously paid such charge as the Council may determine.    And thats in the TRO.

2 Agrees
majorp
majorp
10 Sep 2017 06:27

https://www.devon.gov.uk/trafficorderssearch.htm

If you do find that it is an offence to transfer your ticket, then please let me know.

 

Happy hunting to you all

1 Agree
majorp
majorp
10 Sep 2017 11:18

leatash, Pray tell me what TRO you were looking at, as it should have been the latest consolidation order made on the 2nd May 2017. All other orders have been revoked. And where in that order you refer too, did you find what you have posted on this site?

1 Agree
majorp
majorp
10 Sep 2017 12:47

I have found the answer to my question above and once again leatash is misleading readers to this forum. On the 2nd September 2017 you wrote:- "The same terms and conditions apply Devon County for on street Teighnbridge for car parks these terms and conditions came into force when parking was decriminalised by a act of parliament, as you will know parking illegaly used to be a criminal offence And believe me i more than most know the difference between on and off street parking. Civil parking enforcement came into being in May 2008. And if you think you know more about road traffic than most, then think again, you have already made a glaring blunder.

So if you look and Devon's TRO, then you will find that the same conditions do not apply for on and off street parking. You have been looking at Teignbridge District Council TRO for off street car parks which is a different ball game than for on street parking and there is a lawful reason for that. 

So if you are trying to defend a parking ticket for someone (poor people to have you to try and defend them if you are going to use the wrong TRO in your defence case for them) You would lose everytime.

What is the difference between on and off street disabled bays?

1 Agree
Diana Mond
Diana Mond
10 Sep 2017 16:22

Thanks for the link majorp. 

 

A read of

Section 25 of Part A. 

shows that Leatash is correct in asserting that tickets can only be used by those that bought them. 
 
This has been an informative thread, thank you all. 
1 Agree
majorp
majorp
10 Sep 2017 20:34

Section 25 of part A reads:- 25 The initial charge is payable on the leaving of a vehicle in a parking place referred to in schedule 5 and is the appropriate payment specified in corresponding tariff of appendix C to purchase a ticket from a pay and display ticket machine or a payment made by means of a mobile phone or device to cover the anticipated length of stay subject to the maximum stay permitted at that parking place.

 

So where does it say, "by those that bought them"?

1 Agree
Diana Mond
Diana Mond
10 Sep 2017 20:47

You see, that's where you're going wrong majorp. You're being too literal. 

It clearly says that the charge for parking is payable when you leave your vehicle and you purchase a ticket from a machine. 

Sorry to disagree, but it's black and white. 

 

 

1 Agree
majorp
majorp
10 Sep 2017 21:24

Diana Mond

I thought we were talking about the transfer of the ticket, not who bought it. What you are saying is this. My friend who is not the driver buys a ticket and passes it on to me and that is not allowed according to some on this forum, Is that what you are telling everyone.

1 Agree
Diana Mond
Diana Mond
10 Sep 2017 22:08

Hi majorp. What the TRO is telling everyone is that when you leave the vehicle that you or your driver has parked in a Pay & Display car park, one of you has to buy a ticket from the machine. Either using cash, card or telephone. 

 

Therefore a ticket bought by someone who has parked a different vehicle in said car park can't buy a ticket for (or transfer it to) another vehicle. It's black and white. 

 

I sincerely hope you're not going to get as aggressive with me as you have with Leatash. 

1 Agree
majorp
majorp
11 Sep 2017 09:13

 

Diana Mond

How many more times, I am not talking about car parks. The situation with car parks are materialy different than parking on the road and are controlled by different LA's. In 2008 when civil enforcement started here in Devon, There was an agreement between the County (The only authority that could apply for CPE powers) and the District Councils. As well as each District enforcing their own car parks, they could also enforce the roads in their area. That came to an end in 2014 and each District enforces their own car parks and the County enforces all roads with a few exceptions, A30,A38 and military roads on Dartmoor and I believe one in Topsham.

Now before we go any further with this charade, it would be better to know what TRO you are looking at. Who made it? The dateit was made and any reference to it, point out where others can reference it.

You quoe earlier "Section 25 part A" when I checked it out ,you were quoting from a Teingbridge TRO, when you should have been looking at DCC TRO and quoting from that.

I also asked in an earlier post if you knew the difference between an off street Disabled bay and an on street one, so farno one has come back with an answer.

Now, if you go back to the begining of this thread, the fundamental question was, "I noticed on the ticket ( and I also should have said for on street parking) were the words, "NOT TRANSFERABLE". Now does anyone on here have any idea exactly what is meant by those two words?" What is it's purpose? Please try to answer those two questions and forget the rest. Devon County Council has been asked to clarify and you will remember that I also asked our MP to get more information about it, so far I have heard zilch from her.

2 Agrees
Diana Mond
Diana Mond
11 Sep 2017 10:19

I'm sorry majorp, but the section quoted is from the Devon County Council TRO. 

majorp
majorp
11 Sep 2017 10:57

I do hope you are refering to this one

https://www.devon.gov.uk/documents-www9.pdf?url=trafficorders/browse.asp&url=22756

Section 25 part A makes no mention of not being able to transfer a ticket.

Can you cut and paste that section, so that we will all know for definite that you have the right section.

1 Agree
Diana Mond
Diana Mond
11 Sep 2017 13:01
  1. 25  The initial charge is payable on the leaving of a vehicle in a parking place referred to in schedule 5 and is the appropriate payment specified in corresponding tariff of appendix C to purchase a ticket from a pay and display ticket machine or a payment made by means of a mobile phone or device to cover the anticipated length of stay subject to the maximum stay permitted at that parking place 

 

1 Agree
majorp
majorp
12 Sep 2017 08:48

I suppose it is all about interpretation.

I cannot see where it say's the ticket is not transferable, but I can see that father xmas will give you a refund on any remaining credit providing it is no later than the 25th December.

2 Agrees
Diana Mond
Diana Mond
12 Sep 2017 10:54

You can't see it. I can see it. The law can see it. It's probably best to leave it at that. 

1 Agree
majorp
majorp
12 Sep 2017 20:17

I am like a dog with a bone.

Perhaps Diana Mond could answer this question.

For what reason do they have "Not Transferable" on the ticket?

Diana Mond
Diana Mond
12 Sep 2017 20:22

To make it clear to the person buying the ticket that if they do hand over their ticket, then the person receiving it will have breached the DCC traffic regulations order. Obviously it also makes the person receiving the ticket aware of this fact. 

 

 

majorp
majorp
12 Sep 2017 20:38

That does not answer the question. Read it again.

majorp
majorp
12 Sep 2017 20:50

Perhaps I should have asked first. You claim that it is written into the TRO that you cannot transfer a parking ticket? If it is there, why is it there, what is it's purpose, what are they achieving by it?

Diana Mond
Diana Mond
12 Sep 2017 21:16

Excuse me majorp, but I hope that you're not getting as aggressive with me as you were with Leatash. 

I answered the question that you posed, however it seems that you didn't understand your own question. Which I think sums up this whole debate, to be honest with you. 

With regards to your subsequent questions, I don't know why it's written into the TRO (which it clearly is), but can only surmise that its purpose is to ensure that everyone who uses a chargeable parking space has paid for it. Which seems perfectly fair and reasonable to me. 

 

3 Agrees
majorp
majorp
18 Sep 2017 10:34

 

Without prejudice.

 

My very first question on this subject was, “I noticed on the ticket were the words, "NOT TRANSFERABLE". Now does anyone on here have any idea exactly what is meant by those two words when it comes to parking tickets? That question was never answered.

There was a reply thus, “It is a offence to transfer the ticket to another vehicle”. Well I didn’t ask whether or not it was an offence, I asked if anyone knew what those two words meant. That person was referring (I think) to an off-street TRO where it could well be an offence if you did give it (Transfer the ticket), to someone else. But it is morally wrong and you only have district councillors to blame for it. Remember it is your money we are talking about not theirs. And I wasn’t talking about off-street car parks either.

 

I was then sort of given a lecture thus, “I have never had a ticket its not rocket science just abide by the law park legally don’t speed etc etc. Its not a money making scam its in the terms and conditions of most car parks when you purchase a ticket. So that brings me asking, “If it is not a scam, what is it there for when I did not mention off-street car parks?” Your LA are treating you with contempt for making it an offence. And I did mention ghost tickets which attracted no comment and which if you did receive one of those tickets, you may well find it difficult to defend against.

What is the purpose of not having the ability to give an unexpired ticket to someone else for an on street parking bay? There is a code for an offence which some CEO’s have attempted to use,

11

Parked without payment of the parking charge

But it was paid for, albeit by someone else and it was still unexpired.

 

Until all machines are changed to the new models where you have to punch in the last three digits of your registration number, how would they know you had transferred the ticket. They couldn’t unless they watched you park and then waited until you decided to move and saw you give the ticket to someone else.

 

I have already pointed out that car parks run by a LA are a different kettle of fish than parking on the road in a designated parking bay. In the Teignbridge TRO, it clearly states, “NOT TRANSFERABLE”. But in the DCC TRO, it says no such thing, although someone is inferring it does by using this from TRO 2017 on street. I have broken that section into component parts to make it easier to understand. “25 The initial charge is payable on the leaving of a vehicle in a parking place referred to in schedule 5 (So you park your vehicle, purchase a ticket and leave the car in a parking place) no mention of “Not Transferable” there. And is the appropriate payment specified in corresponding tariff of appendix C (Nothing there either) to purchase a ticket from a pay and display ticket machine or a payment made by means of a mobile phone or device to cover the anticipated length of stay subject to the maximum stay permitted at that parking place (No mention of “Not transferable” there either. That section only apply’s to the purchase of a ticket for parking, it does not and never can mean you cannot transfer the ticket.

 

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So when someone can answer the question, “What is the purpose of not having the right to give someone else the right to use any unexpired time left on the ticket on street,” Then I will move onto the reason why this transferability is a scam and possibly illegal.

Diana Mond
Diana Mond
18 Sep 2017 17:40

I've answered your last question in my response on 12th September. 

 

With regards to the TRO, it doesn't explicitly state that tickets are not transferable. However it does explicitly state that when you leave your vehicle you have to purchase a ticket from a machine!  It couldn't be more obvious. 

majorp
majorp
18 Sep 2017 18:52

Diana Mond, You have said," However it does explicitly state that when you leave your vehicle you have to purchase a ticket from a machine!" Where does it say in that statement that you cannot pass that purchased ticket over to someone else?

Diana Mond
Diana Mond
18 Sep 2017 20:06

This is getting very tedious. It says that you have to purchase a ticket from a machine or over the phone! That's all it needs to say! If you don't purchase a ticket from a machine or over the phone, then you are not meeting the terms and conditions for parking in a chargeable parking space. And therefore in breach of the TRO and therefore breaking the law. It's as simple as that. 

 

I know that you'll never admit that you're wrong , especially if you are who I've been told you are, however your crusade is factually incorrect. This isn't my opinion, it's a fact that's clearly stated in black and white. 

majorp
majorp
18 Sep 2017 20:29

You Diana Mond became tedious some time ago and you have failed to answer the basic question and that is, "what is the purpose of you declaring a parking ticket is "not transferable"? Answer that and you may begin to understand it has no purpose apart from the one you may try and answer. Just trying to make it appear it is not transferable does not really answer anything. Go on answer the purpose of making a ticket not transferable and then I will move onto the next stage of this problem and tell you why it should not be there, even though you think it is.

Anothr thing you may like to consider whilst on this subject. Why is it stated explicitly in an off street parking TRO that a pay and display ticket is "Not Transferable"? when there are no such explicit terms stated anywhere in an on street TRO.

Diana Mond
Diana Mond
18 Sep 2017 21:01

How many times do I need to answer the "basic question"? I've answered it on numerous occasions, as you well know. It's just that you choose not read it, or that it doesn't suit your agenda. Please be assured that you won't wear me down with your aggressive posturing. 

 

So, for once and for all, the purpose for declaring a ticket is "not transferable", is bound to be to give fair warning to anyone who buys a ticket that giving it to someone else would mean that the recipient had breached the terms and conditions of the TRO. It's as simple as that! Or would you rather that tickets had all of the TRO printed on them? New A4 printers would be needed!

 

It IS non-transferable, and that's because the TRO says that YOU have to purchase a ticket from a machine or over the phone. To make it clear - YOU (Y.O.U.) , not some Good Samaritan who would otherwise be unwitting without the words "Non Transferable" printed on the tickets!

 

It's time for another hobby for you. Seriously. 

majorp
majorp
18 Sep 2017 21:29

You have still failed to answer the question, I have read your replies and apart from telling me it is there, you have failed to answer why it is there. What is the underlying purpose of not being able to transfer a parking ticket. And your seriousness on this subject is unforgivable, you appear to answer questions in a way that only suit you and are afraid for want of another word to answer the questions that I ask of you.

What is the purpose of you, or anyone else not having the ability not to transfer a parking ticket to someone else to use? When you understand it's purpose (and I see you failed to answer that question).

I don't want to know any more that it is there, I want you to tell me why it is there. And I promise you that there can only be one feasable purpose. So get your thinking cap on and deal with the question.

2 Agrees
Diana Mond
Diana Mond
18 Sep 2017 22:17

Yet more aggression from you! It's totally unnecessary - unless you have temper issues when being shown up to be wrong. I've answered your questions more than enough times for any normal person to take on board. 

As I've written on here already, its purpose is to ensure that the recipient of the donor's largesse doesn't break the terms of the TRO. 

You can't park in a chargeable parking space without paying the charge. For the umpteenth time - it's as simple as that. 

 

 

majorp
majorp
19 Sep 2017 05:36

I will put it to you another way. What is the motive behind the terms and conditions of not having the ability to transfer a ticket?

Diana Mond
Diana Mond
19 Sep 2017 06:29

Whatever I or anyone else says, you will disagree unless it fits the conspiracy theory that you no doubt have hidden up your sleeve, and that you're just itching to produce with a flourish and a dramatic "TA-DAAA!". This thread is therefore futile. Factual answers have been provided, you simply don't like them. 

DEEDOODLE
DEEDOODLE
19 Sep 2017 08:56

When you purchase the ticket you are entering into an agreement with the conditions laid out for the purchase of said ticket. This is a contract between you and those who have responsibility for the car park and who have decided on what is and is not acceptable in their car park.

If you decide to break the agreement that you entered into when when purchasing the ticket, then it is within the legal right of the car aprk authority to impose their, agreed upon by both parties at time of ticket purchase, penalty.

 

As to why they do not allow transfer is quite simple, more revenue from the car park.

If a person was unhappy about the limitations on transfer of a ticket that still has unexpired time on it, they could:-

1) Challenge the legality of it through the legal system.

2) Don't park in a car park where the rule applies.

3) Stay in the car park until your ticket expires.

4) Accept it and move on with your life.

Written with respect of all opinions on this thread.

 

 

 

2 Agrees
majorp
majorp
19 Sep 2017 09:05

So Diana Mond does not know the motives behind the terms and conditions, pity that, because how can anyone have a meaningful debate on this subject if the prime antagonist to it does not provide answers to questions and continues to go around in circles declaring that answers have been given.

So I will ask one more time.

What is the motive behind a LA not giving the motorist the right to transfer his or her unexpired ticket?

I do hope that is a simple enough question to answer and if you have no idea what the motive is, I shall not be surprised.

DEEDOODLE
DEEDOODLE
19 Sep 2017 09:40

Simple, money, money, money.

3 Agrees
majorp
majorp
19 Sep 2017 09:57

I have to agree with DEEDOODLE except on one point. I have already mentioned that there is a difference between car park conditions and on street parking conditions.

Car parks run by local authorities can do virtually what they like with income raised either by parking charges or income from PCN's. But on street is another matter as to what is done with the income raised and how it is used. All that income is ring fenced and can only be used for set down in law purposes. Whereas, the income raised by whatever means in car parks is not ring fenced and can be used for almost any purpose, that is why I have said it is Teignbridge district councillors that are to blame for allowing tickets to be not transferable. Same applies to DCC councillors but the way they generate income is not only debateable but could be (and I will find out soon) illegal.

Brooklyn Bridge
Brooklyn Bridge
19 Sep 2017 11:08

With all due respect would the two of you give it a rest.  Just agree to disagree for crying out loud.

4 Agrees
Diana Mond
Diana Mond
19 Sep 2017 11:18

With all due respect Brooklyn Bridge, don't read the thread if it doesn't interest you. 

majorp
majorp
19 Sep 2017 15:24

Brooklyn Bridge  It sounds to me that if you knew of some local authority was breaking the law, you would turn a blind eye. Not for me I'm afraid. There are two cases on going at the moment (there may be others) where it could cost DCC millions and that cost will eventually land in your lap. Remember Government and local authorities can only spend money that you give them. No wonder care homes are closing, libraries are threatened, schools are struggling, etc, etc. All because apathy is endemic, they have to foot the bills of their wrong doings first. But who cares? Not you I hear, you just go on crying out loud. I won't hear you.

2 Agrees
Lisa
Lisa
21 Sep 2017 00:46

No doubt tickets are not intended to be transferable so that more income is raised. Not a bad thing so long as it is spent on public works or amenities and not on pay rises for local authority fat cats.

majorp
majorp
21 Sep 2017 10:00

Lisa, you said, "No doubt tickets are not intended to be transferable so that more income is raised." You have hit the nail bang on the head. I did try and explain early on in this debate that there is a difference between OFF STREET parking (car parks) and on street parking. Just as there is a difference between OFF STREET local authority owned car parks and car parks owned by Tesco, Morrison's, service stations, etc,etc. To most people a parking place is a parking place, but there is a world of difference between all parking places I have mentioned above. Some people say they do not get tickets (It is not roocket science not to get one) I did mention (ghost ticket's) and warned that person making such claims as to not receiving any tickets to be careful, they are becoming more prevelent especially in the private sector but it is going on in the local authority sector aswell. And it is difficult to prove (In most cases) that you did not commit a contravention. So everybody beware when you are accused of illegal parking. There are rules in every game and there are laws telling us what we can and cannot do and that applies to us all. I would not be at all surprised if money raised from on street parking has somehow filtered through to assisting the cost of providing cycle paths, even though most of the money to supply cycle paths come from Europe. If it could be proved that it was, then that would be illegal without a shadow of doubt. There are only certain things that money raised from on street parking can be used for (It is ring fenced money) and one of the first things provided in the list is to provide more OFF STREET parkig if there is a need. Does it happen? You only have to look at the Barton car park to see how many spaces have disappeared since it was created. But no one complained that OFF STREET parking places are disappearing. I have emphasised OFF STREET, so that no one can be in any doubt that we are not dealing with them. It is only on street.

2 Agrees
Diana Mond
Diana Mond
21 Sep 2017 10:17

TA-DAAAAA! 

 

majorp
majorp
21 Sep 2017 11:24
Diana Mond
Diana Mond
21 Sep 2017 10:17

TA-DAAAAA! 

That means nothing to me????

 

1 Agree
Lisa
Lisa
21 Sep 2017 16:20

Surplus revenue from on street car parking can be spent on cycle paths but only after the council has concluded that the provison of further off street parking is either unnecessary or undesirable. See the 1984 road traffic regulation act section 55.  Obviously such a conclusion would be ridiculous and I think the source for the money for cycle paths should be itemised and made public.

Diana Mond
Diana Mond
21 Sep 2017 19:01

Majorp, I'm sorry if that went over your head. 

majorp
majorp
21 Sep 2017 20:41

Diana Mond, don't worry about it, most of what you have said in the past, went over my head. It was only towards the end of this thread that someone else got to where I wanted to be, raising revenue and making money. There could not be any other reason for not permitting the transfer of a ticket, and I did try and explain the difference between on and off street parking, which would allow one to place resticictions on what you could do with your parking ticket but not the other. Operators of off street parking are not so restricted as on street operators are, and section 55 RTRA 1984 makes it an illegal excercise. I have just seen a letter, suposedly written by Stuart Hughes, cabinet member for transport on DCC and he knew nothing about the letter when challenged. And that was because an officer had made a boo boo on the dispesation permits by over charging for a permit, and I believe they are expecting Mr Hughes to take the flack. Whether it will happen I don't know, either way it will cost DCC a fair ammount of money, when the sh1t hits the fan. So could that same officer have made a boo,boo by allowing "Not Transferable" to be printed on the on street parking tickets. I do not know the answer to that, but as always, the truth will out in the end.

2  Regulatory framework 

 

5.  Local authorities have long been responsible for managing on-street parking, as set out in the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984. In terms of enforcement, prior to 1991 the police and traffic wardens were responsible for compliance and income from fixed penalty notices went to the Exchequer. The Road Traffic Act 1991 significantly changed the way that on-street parking restrictions were enforced. The 1991 Act made it mandatory for London boroughs and optional for other local authorities to take on the civil enforcement of parking contraventions. The changeover started in London in 1993 and outside London a few years later. The Act also allowed local authorities to keep the income generated from issuing Penalty Charge Notices (PCNs).[3]

6.  The Traffic Management Act 2004 ("the TMA") now provides the legal framework for parking and in 2008, when regulations under the TMA came into effect, it replaced the Road Traffic Act 1991 as the primary piece of legislation covering parking. The TMA and the associated regulations gave to English authorities outside London many civil enforcement powers already available to authorities in London, giving greater consistency across the country.[4] In accordance with the TMA, the DfT produced statutory guidance to local authorities on the civil enforcement of parking contraventions, in which it made clear that local authorities:

  • should not use parking enforcement as a tool for raising revenue; My under lining and emphasis.
  • should not set targets for the number of tickets issued;
  • are encouraged to allow officers to use more discretion over when a ticket is issued - including using verbal warnings for minor contraventions - and are strongly advised to only use wheel-clamping against those who persistently evaded their penalty charges; and
  • should only use cameras to enforce parking rules where enforcement is difficult or sensitive and the use of a Civil Enforcement Officer is not practical. Approved devices should not be used where permits or exemptions (such as resident permits or Blue Badges) not visible to the equipment may apply.[5]

The DfT has also produced more detailed operational guidance to local authorities on parking policy and enforcement. There has been several court cases where the raising of extra revenue above and beyond what is required, even one case that went to the royal courts that heard the arguements and the judges ruled it was illegal. The law is explicit - parking charges are about managing congestion, not raising revenue.

Do you know why local authority owned car parks cannot be enforced by ANPR cameras but car parks such as Tesco's and other supermarkets and other private land owned car parks can? There is only one answer, so please don't drive around the mulberry bush in trying to find another answer or trying to tell others something that is not there.

 

1 Agree
Diana Mond
Diana Mond
21 Sep 2017 21:04

Which local authority car parks use ANPR?

Please be a good chap and provide a non-aggressive answer. 

majorp
majorp
22 Sep 2017 03:46

Diana Mond, We can now all see what you are like. I asked a smple question and instead of answering the question you ask me another question, so I will do the same on this occasion And before you get riled up about that, why are there ANPR cameras in some local authority car parks if they cannot be used for enforcement purposes? And here is another question that you may like to answer------- What makes you think that majorp is a male? Females can do the job of informing others, as well as males.

Here is a little something else to occupy your mind unless you are already in possession of the answer. What has four, sometimes nine and never five? 

1 Agree
Diana Mond
Diana Mond
22 Sep 2017 07:10

1. I don’t know why. 

2.  Based upon whom I’ve been told you are. 

3. I don’t know the answer to your riddle. 

 

Now which local authority car parks use ANPR?

Plod
Plod
22 Sep 2017 10:38

the civil enforcement of parking contraventions general amendment no.2 regulations 2015 amended the civil enforcement of parking general regulations 2007 so that penalties based on video evidence can no longer be sent by post (there are 4 exceptions) but the video ban is only in relation to on street parking contraventions and not relevant to council run off street car park contraventions. is there another set of regulations relevant to off street car parks majorp?

1 Agree
majorp
majorp
22 Sep 2017 19:00

Plod, there is. local authorities can only use an approved device, and unfortunately an ANPR camera is not an approved device for parking in local authority car parks. They can be used on private land and for speeding purposes by the police.

The problem is, not many people know that, local authority officers know that many people don't know that, so officers will get away with anything until they are found out. They will deny everything right up to the wire and if the person that is accusing them of wrong doing, sticks to their guns, (but it does involve an awful lot of research to know that you are right before you start any challenge), that is when they know that you know more than they do, and they back down.

 

Having said that, ANPR cameras are being used in local authority car parks, but they cannot be used for enforcement purposes. What they do is use them for management purposes, (you must have seen neon boards around different parts of Exeter) those boards tell the motorist whether a certain car park is full or partly empty.and when they find that there are many people exceding their expired time parking ticket, they send their army around and issue as many tickets as they can, (that means they are not being enforcced by the cameras, but by CEO's on foot. So that is how local authorities can get aroung the law that they can only use an unapproved device for parking purposes.

1 Agree
majorp
majorp
22 Sep 2017 19:33

Just had this arrive by email.

I asked a local authority several questions about the transfer of parking tickets, You do not need to know what questions I asked or who the local authority was.

I can only assume that to place Not Transferable on a purchased ticket was a mistake and someone somewhere should be held accountable for that error. I will follow this up however.

This was a FOI request.

Please find below the extra responses/clarification to your enquiry.

The question should have been after I pointed you to the section that concerned me. Is there any reason why parking tickets that you issue, are not transferable? - It damages the income to the Council. Ultimately, if the tickets were transferable this would lead to a loss of income which in turn would result in the car park tariffs having to be increased.

I don't know whether or not you pre-empted my question. if you did, is the answer you have given at 5, still applicable? - Yes.

I am trying to establish if the section I directed you too at 2 in my questions are the same as printed in an on street TRO. - There is no contravention for displaying a transferred ticket in an on street parking place.

So there you have it. Now many of you will not have the nerve to transfer your unexpired tickets (on street). Remember it does not apply to car parks off street. It will depend on whether or not enough of you can put pressure on your district councillor to get things changed for the better for changing the off street parking tickets so that they too can be transfered without any fear of doing so.

1 Agree
Plod
Plod
22 Sep 2017 20:19

there are many types of anpr and if it complies with the civil enforcement of parking contraventions approved devices order 2007 and been certified by the secretary of state (via VCA) it can be used for on and off street enforcement purposes. an example of a anpr VCA certified camera

https://www.sea.co.uk/transport/products/roadflow-flexi/

Diana Mond
Diana Mond
22 Sep 2017 21:04

Majorp, which local authority car parks use ANPR?

 

You’re now talking about your FOI request to Wiltshire County Council, why them and not Devon??

Plod
Plod
22 Sep 2017 21:18

the answer dianamond would require many foi requests as local authorities don't advertise their use. an foi to every local authority would also be needed to find out if the anpr they use is certified as an approved device to allow postal penalty fines. majorp is correct if the anpr is not certified (approved). certification is done on behalf of the secretary of state of the dft by the VCA.

1 Agree
Diana Mond
Diana Mond
22 Sep 2017 21:57

Thanks for that Plod. Do you happen to know whether any local-local authorities use them? Please don’t make an FOI request to find out though, as I wouldn’t want my Council Tax bill to go up any more! :)

Plod
Plod
22 Sep 2017 22:13

Some local councils in devon, cornwall and somerset have anpr cctv but as far as i'm aware none use it to enforce off street parking. mainly because the cost to do so would be more than the income it generates. less and less contraventions occur off street these days with pay on exit or pay by phone systems.

Diana Mond
Diana Mond
22 Sep 2017 22:28

Thanks Plod. That just about confirms the assumption that I’d made re local authority use of ANPR hereabouts. 

 

Just waiting for majorp to answer my other question now. 

 

 

Lisa
Lisa
22 Sep 2017 22:28

According to Devon CC meetings they are currently planning to get rid of on street free limited waiting places county wide and replace them with pay and display places. Why would they do this other than to raise revenue? Using parking regulations to raise revenue is not lawful according to Justice Lang. Search the court case Attfied v Barnet.

 

 

majorp
majorp
23 Sep 2017 06:35

Lisa, Councillor Clatworthy is to blame for this. He is the cabinet member for Finance. He was the one that pushed for and succeeded in getting on street parking meters in Dawlish, he has been the one that has been pushing for more on street parking controls in towns where there is very little control and very little congestion problems ----but he will not admit to any of it. In fact when I challenge him once about it in person on street, he denied all knowledge that it was him that he was the master mind behind it. 

And as for Diana Mond, it appears to me that there is no need for me to answer any more questions. The brain power from that person seems quite adeqate to provide answers, without others having to give them.  As for ANPR camera use in local authority car parks, you can find that out yourself and if you read properly, I have already told you how ANPR is used in LA car parks.

1 Agree
Diana Mond
Diana Mond
23 Sep 2017 07:46

I’ll take that as a compliment majorp. Disappointing though that someone who always asks questions seems so reluctant to answer other people’s questions himself. 

majorp
majorp
23 Sep 2017 10:00

For anyone interested, from Torbay council after I asked and have asked them more questions on the subject of the car parks they own.

4. Is there ANPR cameras installed in any of the car parks that you own?

 

Yes.

 

The ANPR cameras are used as a management system and not to enforce.

 

Well, they are telling porkies, because Berry Head car park is owned by torbay but that car park is enforced by ANPR.

Why do local authorities keep on telling porkies? They get found out eventually and the cost of putting things right is a Burden on the tax payer and not making requests via FOI as someone has sujested. 

I have sent Torbay council a letter I obtain from the Department of Transport.that letter has been passed to their legal department and it has been over a month without a reply. If delays in making replies promply by many loacl authorities that I have had the  pleasure to deal with, tells me they are snookered.

I will wait and see.

2 Agrees
majorp
majorp
24 Sep 2017 12:30

Now for the good news. After not receiving any confirmation from Anne Marie Morris MP which I told everyone what I had done at the begining of this topic, I have finally received a letter which was delivered to the wrong address and opened in error. I might add--DONKEYS! because it clearly stated my name on the address. But I think that because it was in a House of Commons envelope, someone wanted to be noisy

However the previous delay was because she was waiting for a reply from Teignbridge District Council.

I will not bore you all, with all the contents of the letter, there is good news and bad, but just to say, "As from end of Semptember/early October, the machines in off street car parks will have the machines modified by removing the pad where you are required to punch in the last three digits of your VRN". The reason they started this was to protect people who had received a parking ticket (PCN) for not displaying a valid parking, because on shutting the door, the ticket would either flip over or fall off the dash where the ceo could not see it. the proof that you did have a valid pay for ticket, (If someone took the trouble to appeal) was to show the ticket to the authority controlling the car park that the ticket married upwith the details on the PCN. So now the problem is for both sides, is this, That whilst the ticket will still have printed on it "Not Transferable", how would anyone no if you did? and if your ticket fell off the dash or flipped over so that it could not be read, making it invalid. How could you prove that it was valid? the answer would be you couldn't, so unless you had a valid reason to appeal on other grounds, there would be no point intrying to appeal a ticket that could not be seen by the CEO or that it had flipped over and could not be read, also making it invalid. So here is a little tip. Place a small piece of blue tack on the dash and stick your ticket to that, and if you have still got unexpired time left on your ticket, it is your choice what you do with it.

I do hope that I have explained things clearly enough. Just be careful how you use the tickets. 

Now for the on street ones.

majorp
majorp
24 Sep 2017 15:55

Lynne, You asked:

Can one of you explain please why it is that in some car parks you take a ticket when you go in and then pay whatever amount is due for the amount of time you have stayed in the car park when you leave, whereas for other car parks you pay at the beginning of your stay for, say, 2 hours, even if you only use the space for 1 hour?

I cannot really answer it, other than it is convienient for some to use a different method to charge for parking. I recently visited Berry Head as I believe there is a problem on how that car park is operated. There is an ANPR camera that takes a photo of your number plate on entry. The camera is connected to one of two machines at the exit. It is a touch screen and you follow instructions on the screen to find out how much you will be charged on exit. The point of that system is to catch people out. As it say's on the entrance sign, (pay on exit) people do not bother to look at the charges especially if the only parking spaes left are at the other end of the car park. Shock horror when you leave and find out how much you have to pay. The name of the company operating this car park comes from Manchester, they are called "Parkwith ease".

Diana Mond
Diana Mond
24 Sep 2017 16:15

Personally, I visit Berry Head to enjoy the scenery and have a nice cup of tea and slice of cake at the lovely cafe there. But each to their own. 

 

I think that the ANPR system in use there is great (not that these things overly excite me!!!). To say that “people do not bother to look at the charges” is somewhat condescending. Some might not, but I’m pretty confident that the vast majority do. They might not necessarily like the scale of the charges, but that’s the way it is. 

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